HELP AMERICA VOTE ACT.
PUBLIC HEARING.

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS.

Friday, March 27, 2003.
2:15 p.m. 
Butler County Courthouse.
100 North Main.
Poplar Bluff, Missouri.

COMMITTEE MEMBERS.
PRESENT: Secretary of State, Mr. Matt Blunt.
Mr. Gilbert Powers.
Mr. Charles Isbell.
Mr. Reid Forrester.
 
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS.
MR. BLUNT: I'm Matt Blunt, and I 
certainly want to welcome everybody to this 
hearing. And I want to take time to thank John 
Dunivan as our host county clerk in allowing us 
to utilize this great facility and other county 
officials here as well, the rest of the Butler 
County government for allowing us to use this 
facility to talk about an issue that I feel is 
of importance, and that's how Missouri 
implements the Help America Vote Act, which is 
the federal statute that -- that is going to 
provide funding for states and localities to 
improve their election process. 

In accordance with that Act, every state 
is required to submit a state plan to the 
federal government. We have a very diverse 
state plan committee that is working on that. 
I'm joined here today by one of the co-chairs, 
Gil Powers, the Johnson County clerk, as well as 
Charles Isbell, the Dunklin County clerk, who 
serves as a member of the education co-worker 
training subcommittee, and Reid Forrester, who 
serves also in that education subcommittee. 
I think Missouri can take pride in the 
fact that in lots of ways we move more quickly 
than the federal government to implement 
important measures to improve our election 
process. A election -- before measures really 
was based on recommendations of a bipartisan 
commission right after I took office in January 
of 2001. They're recommendations were enacted 
and implemented by the legislature and in a lot 
more quickly than the federal government, made 
the ballot more accessible to the citizens of 
our state. 

At the same time, we implemented strong 
anti-fraud measures to try and ensure we 
wouldn't have the sort of chaos and problems 
that existed in other parts of Missouri and in 
November of 2000 election. 

Of the federal mandates, we already meet 
many of those provisional balloting orders. 
We're very close to meeting the exact needs of 
the federal law. The voter identification 
requirement that we have in place fully meets 
the needs of the federal law. Other -- other 
things that have to -- we do have to incur, 
though, to ensure that we're in full compliance 
with this federal statute and also to help 
ensure that we maximize those dollars that are 
going to come do our state. As much as 76 
million dollars may come to Missouri to improve 
and enhance our election system. 

Public testimony is very important as we 
move forward the best way to make that happen. 
Certainly, we have lots of local election 
authorities that serve on -- that serve on the 
state planning committee, and their input is 
extremely important because they're the ones who 
are going to execute whatever we decide must be 
done. Public input is very important. We did 
public testimony in 18 locations around the 
state in early 2001. That was extremely 
important to the list of recommendations that we 
drafted for the -- for the legislature to 
consider, and we helped push through the 
legislative process. So, certainly, I would 
encourage anybody that has comments about our 
process or criticisms of our current process to 
please offer that in testimony when we open that 
up here in a moment. 

I would ask if Charles and Reid and 
Gilbert -- and Gil have any comments. Gil? 

MR. POWERS: Thank you, Secretary 
Blunt. I just want to commend Secretary Blunt 
for his foresight to be proactive in the 
election process. As soon as he came into 
office, he initially -- immediately created the 
election commission, Blunt Commission, and 
started working on post-legislation to protect 
the voting system and to implement improvements. 
And then in here last year proposing some 
legislation that was a precursor to what Help 
America Vote has mandated us so do. It's almost 
as if he knew or read the mind of the Senate and 
understood the direction they were going. So it 
seems like he -- he's headed in the right 
direction. And, again, here he's created these 
subcommittees to take comments on the state 
plan. 

I'm the co-chair along with Judy Taylor 
of the St. Louis Election Board and also -- also 
seated -- Randy Taylor is here, and he's also a 
member on the equipment accessibility 
subcommittee. The Help America Vote Act has 
several sections in it, and we're going to be 
focusing mainly on the -- my subcommittee is 
mainly going to be focusing on the equipment and 
the accessibility issues at the polling places. 
And there are some federal funds that are coming 
along with this Act. 

Under Title I, there's about 325 million 
that will be going to some of the states under 
some form or basis. There's also some funds 
that will be used for -- for replacing punch 
card systems in the state. We think that about 
ten and a half million will be earmarked just 
for replacing card punch in Missouri. That's 
not going to be a mandatory program, but it will 
be there for those election districts that 
choose to go ahead and replace punch card 
systems. I will say if we had taken the 
mindset, you know, 20 or 30 years ago that we 
should all use the very same type of election 
system, we would probably all be on card punch 
systems right now. So this is not a mandatory 
item, but it is there for those districts who 
want to make those changes. 

Under Title III, there's about three 
billion that will have to have some matching 
state funds to implement the state plans. 
And that's the main thrust of these committees 
is to make recommendations, to meet mandatory 
requirements for Help America Vote. 

In some of the previous public hearings 
we've heard about the importance of being able 
to vote unassisted in privacy and the right of 
all citizens to cast their vote in that form. 
And we totally agree with that. The other side 
of this, though, also comes in that the types of 
systems that are available for us to use to 
allow people with different disabilities to be 
able to vote in private. And Help America Vote 
requires that every polling place have at least 
one system that will allow a person regardless 
of their handicap to be able to vote in privacy 
unassisted. That's quite a financial burden on 
-- on the local election -- election districts. 
Although we have some funds that are coming with 
Help America Vote, we've also heard testimony 
that it won't be sufficient and we may hear more 
of that kind of testimony today. 

So I think I'd just stop there and wait 
to hear your comments because as an election 
authority, it's nice to be able to stand back 
and hear from the public and -- and see what 
their perceptions are and then be able to maybe 
go back and help implement that. So I'll be 
quiet at this time and go from there. 

MR. BLUNT: Charles Isbell, the 
Dunklin County clerk is also with us who serves 
on the education subcommittee here. Charles, 
would you like to -- 

MR. ISBELL: One of the things that 
we were charged with is to take a look the -- 
the responsibility that we have to the voters to 
inform them on election day. We looked at the 
possibility of having a Voters Bill of Rights, 
if you will. We also looked at how we could go 
about informing the voters of some of the things 
that they'll be encountering on election day 
because believe is it important --when people go 
to the polls, they're not really sure of the 
process. They have voted for many years and the 
laws change from year to year. So we've looked 
at various things. One of the things we've 
looked at is possibly maybe putting an insert in 
the newspaper a week or two before the election 
to -- to tell the election laws have changed or 
something of that nature. And I'd like to hear 
from some folks today of some things that you 
would like to see the election authorities do in 
your district, your area. And we would 
implement -- that would give you information you 
need to vote on election day. 

MR. BLUNT: Thank you, Charles. And 
all three of the established political parties 
in our state, the Republican, Democrat, 
Libertarian parties have people representing 
them on various subcommittees of the state plan 
committee. Somebody representing the political 
parties is Reid Forrester. Reid, would you like 
to a say couple words on the education 
supplement? 

MR. FORRESTER: That's correct. 
Thank you, Matt. Let me first say that Matt 
ought to be commended for putting this group 
together. As he's already indicated to you 
about the political party representation that's 
on this committee, which are three major 
parties, but also on this committee is every 
walk of life that you could imagine from the 
disabled to college students and alike. And, in 
fact, one of the subcommittees that I serve on 
is the Coworker in Training, which is trying 
bring in college students into the process. And 
so, you know, again, I think the voters ought to 
be proud as well. Not just should we be proud 
of Matt, but this process is laid out such that 
there is input. And I guess one of the 
surprising things so far about my experience 
with this committee is the fact that work isn't 
done so many times when you get asked to serve 
on a committee like there, everything is 
predetermined, and you just feel like you're 
going the motions of these public hearings. But 
as someone who has been there and seen on the 
inside of what's going on, rest assured that 
these public hearings is for your input, to have 
some decision-making in what's going to take 
place. So please feel free to share with us 
candidly and openly so we can do your wishes. 
Thank you. 

MR. BLUNT: Thank you, Reid. We 
have had public hearings around the state. I 
have think this is the fifth of those public 
hearings. And, certainly, very valuable to us. 
Members that can't attend -- members of 
committee that can't attend are given 
transcripts of the testimony. At this time, I'd 
like just to open it up to anybody who would 
like to offer some -- some comments about the 
election process or any concerns that you may 
have. 

MR. POWERS: I think there's some 
sheets on the clipboard isn't there? 

MS. VANDELICHT: Yeah. Has anyone 
already filled out the -- 

MR. FORRESTER: They're all happy. 

MR. BLUNT: You all are perfectly 
satisfied with the election process as it exists 
today in our state, correct? 

MS. VANDELICHT: The TV camera is 
gone. It's not at all intimidating. I'll give 
these, and then if you -- if you have something 
to testify to right now, please. 

MR. FORRESTER: If I might, just 
maybe to try and get the discussion started, my 
county clerk is John Dunivan. And without 
putting him on the spot, I have talked to John, 
and, you know, the issue of -- and I know 
there's a lot of county clerks here, so the 
issue of the punch cards has come up and the 
reimbursements and things like that. I guess my 
question would be to John or any county clerk 
here, are we satisfied with what you've heard in 
the punch card buyout? Or is there suggestions 
or -- or testimony that you would want to 
provide in regards to that? 

MS. VANDELICHT: Would you give your 
name before you make a comment so that -- 

MR. DUNIVAN: I'm John Dunivan, 
Butler County Clerk. And thanks, Reid, for 
allowing me to speak first. The punch card 
system -- Butler County drew up the punch card 
system in '89. Prior to that, we were on paper. 
An election in '88, it was 3:00 Wednesday 
afternoon before we had the results in. Most 
radio stations and TV stations within 150, 200 
miles of my office called my office, wanted to 
know why we didn't have the results. We are a 
third class county. And at times we don't have 
a lot of money. But we did purchase the punch 
card system after looking at the optical scan, 
and I think that was it. At that time, we only 
had paper, optical scan and punch cards. We 
have about $35,000, if my memory serves me 
right, in our punch card system. I used to say 
we had 30 or 32,000 registered voters. We have 
about 20 or 22,000 now because we just went 
through them again. I have 25 precincts. We've 
got a counter that's in good shape, and we have 
about 150 voting sheets. Everything Butler 
County purchased was used because we couldn't 
afford to buy the new stuff. 

Since we implemented the punch card 
system, the first three to six to nine months, 
it then moved and we really didn't have any 
snags. But I believe there was some untrust or 
some suspicion about it. Reid can tell you that 
I -- and we do have all three parties in this 
county, I may add, although the main parties 
Republican and the Democrat party. After we got 
used to it, I believe the punch card system 
performed well. I believe that I -- I thought I 
was accurate when I said that the counter 
normally was accurate within 1 to 300,000. 

And over the years, we've had several 
post votes and we've did some recounts. And 
then just recently, I think, we had a recount on 
the state race. Only we hand-counted that, and 
I believe that was the next item. My point, and 
I'll shut up is right now -- and I watched what 
happened in the Florida debacle. I'm not 
convinced that optical scan is better or that 
much better than my punch card system. Now, I'm 
not saying that it's not. I'm just speaking 
from my opinion. And if Butler County is going 
to expend some funds, how long in the future is 
it going to be until maybe a better system is 
available? And I talked to several county 
clerks over the last couple years and -- and 
some of them that can afford it are waiting 
until the State approves another system. Reid 
is correct, there is some money available for 
punch card buyout. And I believe it's 4,000 per 
precinct. I have 25 precinct and, and I believe 
I'm eligible for $100,000 for Butler County. 

I'm afraid that the system that we have 
to purchase is going to cost three or four times 
that. In the 103 budget, we laid off six people 
out of the sheriff's office, and get into 
priorities. I -- I'd love to have the nicest, 
fanciest, most trusted, most reliable voting 
equipment made if we could find a way to 
purchase it and pay for it. I just wanted to 
say if I buy if this through the next couple 
elections, do I prorate it, charge the schools 
or the City of Poplar Bluff a percentage of 
that cost? I don't know. But I will sit down 
and give somebody else a chance to talk unless 
one of my good friends or a constituent or Reid 
has another question of me. 

MR. BLUNT: Those are excellent 
comments. 

One of the big concerns people do have is 
purchasing new equipment. You know, there's -- 
a lot of -- I've never heard of a funded federal 
mandate. I don't think this one's going to be a 
funded federal mandate either. And given that, 
you would be eligible for to a hundred thousand 
dollars, but that's if they appropriate the full 
amount for the buyout. If they appropriate 
two-thirds of it, you'd be eligible for $67,000. 
Obviously, that's not going to buy the sort of 
state of the art system that I'm afraid lots of 
our fellow citizens think we're going to go to. 

Your comments, too, about where technology is 
going, in a couple years, there may be a better 
system on the market lowering the cost. I do 
think one thing Missouri did that was wise and I 
encouraged it at the time was not to have a knee 
jerk reaction in -- right after November 2000 
and go out and buy a new system. Some states 
that did that and made a big mistake. 

There's equipment that's on the market 
today that wasn't on the market six months ago, 
let alone two years ago. And it's really -- the 
unit cost of that equipment continues to 
decline. But funding issues are paramount both 
from local election authorities. County 
commissioners are very concerned with -- with 
good reason about how they're going to upgrade 
their election equipment and with the State's 
fiscal situation and the counter -- I'm sorry. 

MR. DUNIVAN: And as a punch card 
county, we're looking at the punch cards and 
we're also looking at the ADA machines at each 
precinct. So it's kind of a double whammy. 

MR. BLUNT: That's right. 

MR. POWELL: Your equipment only has 
to be compatible -- is has to be compatible with 
whatever ADA piece of equipment that you're 
going to purchase. 

MR. FORRESTER: In fact, one of the 
things that's come out in some of the testimony 
that's been -- at other hearings is it's 
actually a more stringent standard than ADA. 
That -- that, you know, reasonable accommodation 
is under -- in the actual statute for -- when 
you think of ADA, the actual Help America Vote 
statute says you just shall accommodate. So 
it's even a higher standard than -- than, you 
know, we've all been used to as either a 
municipality or county or even a state. 

MR. BLUNT: We had several people 
fill out witness forms, but I think they may 
have just thought they were supposed to fill it 
out because they were here. 

MR. POWERS: We got them, didn't we? 

MR. BLUNT: Gary Hensley from Oregon 
County and Becky York from Ripley County, both 
echo your comments are about funding, so I share 
your concerns. 

MR. HENSLEY: I'm Gary Hensley from 
Oregon County. I filled that out, Matt. I 
didn't know for sure that I was going to speak, 
but it's hard no me not for speak sometimes. We 
are on the optical scan in Oregon County, and 
that took effect 1994. I became county clerk in 
1995. And I am well pleased with the optical 
scan even though we only have five machines. 
And, of course, I handled elections -- we have 
15 precincts. So I have each of the four 
election judges bring their ballots in and the 
other precincts only take four machines out 
during the day. And I have one that -- for my 
absentees, which is still in the courthouse. So 
that's what we are faced with. And I have 
brought this up -- to the Commission and I have 
talked to one of my -- president of the school 
boards and I talked to some of the schools. And 
they're -- they are concerned even though, you 
know, with federal money being proposed for and 
this, and I've told them about the amount of 
federal money that it is -- for schools to see 
the federal money cutback and the cost of 
elections are -- we are very small county. 

We're 10,000. And I have approximately 6,400 
registered voters and have about 23 to 43 
percent turn out. But the cost of the elections 
is what I'm hearing from the schools and the 
cities is already getting a tremendous burden on 
them with the amount of revenue that they have 
coming in. And they automatically call me 
whether they're thinking about putting the issue 
on the ballot to see what it's going to cost. 

And I have informed them if we have to 
update and buy more equipment, the cost of the 
elections are going to increase. And they are 
kind of skeptical of -- because of the federal 
money being cut back in other places. You know, 
how much federal money are you going to have, 
how much is it going to cost up, how much is 
coming out of our pockets. And that's where my 
any commissioners are coming from, too. 
And that's one of my concerns. 

Also -- and, of course, this don't have 
anything to do with that particularly, but we're 
seeing such a low percentage of turnout 
sometimes because we're getting a higher amount 
of registered voters due the to fact that 
through the Motor Voter Act that we're having a 
lower percentage. And that's another thing that 
bothers me sometimes is the amount of work that 
we're in -- we're increasing in the office. And 
being a third county I only have two 
secretaries, so, you know, we do everything 
else. And with elections, it's becoming more 
and more, where are we going to get all the 
money to, you know, supplement and help me out 
as the county clerk and hire more staff and, you 
know, keep the cost -- the election is being 
becoming an every day process. Even though 
you're not having an election, you're still 
having a lot of turnover and you're constantly 
going through your Motor Voter registration 
cards. I get more every day, and I'm sure you 
big counties get more than I do. 

MR. ISBELL: You've had optical scan 
as opposed to -- 

MR. HENSLEY: I have the optical 
scan in the four of my precincts and, of course, 
the other 11 precincts, they bring them in that 
night. We run them through optical scan at 
courthouse that night. 

MR. ISBELL: And you have a separate 
counter there? 

MR. HENSLEY: Yes. 

MR. POWERS: Gary, do you have any 
concern -- under this Help America Vote Act, 
this talks about second chance voting. And it 
says we can meet some of those -- we -- we think 
we can meet some of that second chance voting by 
education and by preparing the voter and through 
programs where we educate the voter as to what 
second chance voting is and help that way. 
Where you have four out of fifteen -- you 
actually have a machine spits out the ballots I 
assume if there's an overvote or something. And 
you have a concern -- do you have any concern 
about that at all? I mean, the -- 

MR. HENSLEY: Well, what I do on the 
over vote, I have my election judges there that 
night. And I make sure my election judges give 
that ballot the same opportunities that they 
would have had if they had a voting machine at 
their precinct. If that voting machine kicked 
that ballot back that night, I have my judges 
review that, and I'm standing right there with 
them. And if it's an over vote ballot, of 
course, we know it's an over vote. But we will 
take and mark the ballot, fold that ballot, show 
it as a no vote and they get to count everything 
else that was a proper vote. Do you follow what 
I'm saying? We cannot do nothing about the over 
vote because we do not know the intent. The 
judges have no way of knowing the intent of that 
over vote. But they do have the knowledge of 
knowing what that voter intended on the rest of 
the ballot. Is that kind of what you're 
referring to? 

MR. DUNIVAN: That's one of the 
advantages maybe of the punch card system and I 
am biased. But if -- if you over vote, if they 
vote for two people for county clerk, it just 
voids that one off. The rest of the punch card 
ballots voted automatically. 

MR. POWELL: I guess my -- my 
concern was for Gary was that he's giving some 
people mechanical opportunity to actually 
correct their ballot where 11 of those people 
don't have that opportunity. I didn't know if 
that was a concern of yours in light of the 
plan -- 

MR. HENSLEY: That's another reason 
I have my judges there that night, and we look 
at that ballot. And me being the election 
authority, I'll be honest with you. I'm there. 
If any ballots kick back, I'm standing there or 
one of my chief staff members is standing there 
with those judges on that decision. And I tell 
you, they -- they document everything that -- 
that -- and we did have a recount, and it was 
done with the hand. Even though I opposed that 
standard at first. I thought it needed to be 
done the same way, but everything turned out 
good. And, you know, everything -- so -- that's 
the freedom we have, and that's -- you know, I 
thought it -- you know -- 

MR. POWERS: Well, you've got 15 
precincts, and for those 15 precincts you 
probably have a pretty good knowledge of your 
voters, who they are and what abilities they 
have. 

MR. HENSLEY: Yeah. 

MR. POWELL: How many of those do 
you think would be blind, in a need of 
assistance from a device that would -- where 
they'd have to use audio or some other means 
other than visual to cast their vote? 

MR. HENSLEY: Very small. We have, 
I'd say, maybe 1 percent. Something like -- we 
had very few ballots that are mismarked or 
anything. I would credit my judges for that. I 
credit my -- my judges, you know. I do -- if my 
judges need it, I always take a ballot. I 
always have sample ballots, and I show them how 
they -- you know, instruct the -- the voter. 
And I'm very proud of my judges, and we have a 
very few --very few. Yeah. I'll sit down and 
let somebody else talk. 

MR. FORRESTER: Yes. 

MR. MILLER: Rodney Miller, Cape 
Girardeau County Clerk. Your questions you 
asked regarding the punch card, doesn't your law 
require that they're same changeability and you 
have it in -- you do have it in the optical scan 
if you have the readers there that if you if you 
have an over vote and it kicks it out, and you 
have second chance voting punch card if you do 
not. And there may be a machine -- I don't know 
if there's a machine available. I've heard of 
something like that. But doesn't it also -- one 
of your question we have provided a certain 
amount of education then we can basically serve 
them that, and circumvent that issue, 
particularly punch card voting? I don't -- I 
know there's new things, but I think everybody 
has a certain -- pretty high amount of education 
to help any voter that has any issue with punch 
card voting how to vote. They know they need 
help. I think most county clerks are certainly 
helping judges doing that under the law. 
And I don't know where punch cards will 
end up, but I have to the same issues we spoke 
about on Friday evening. The punch cards have 
been very satisfactory. If education was such, 
I'd -- where are we going with it? We know it's 
not enough money to buy us out without -- 
especially Cape County with those who are 
required to -- 

MR. FORRESTER: I'm not going to -- 
I'm not going to argue with your statement. But 
I would ask, of course -- I don't believe 
there's any provision that education allows you 
to change anything, is there? 

MR. MILLER: Yes. Yes. I stand 
corrected. 

MR. BLUNT: The punch card buyout 
is not mandatory, and that's sort of a -- I 
think a misconception about the Help America 
Vote Act is it mandates a punch card buyout. It 
doesn't. It certainly presents a strong 
incentive to do so. I do think there are some 
in state government who would -- would at some 
point maybe think the State should ban the punch 
card voting device in their state. That's 
something that really you'd want to watch or 
advocate of punch card voting would want to 
watch in the legislature. What I think the -- 
the education issue deals with the second chance 
voting. The education is if you could 
demonstrate that you had a sufficient education 
program in place, then you would perhaps not 
have to meet all of the second chance voting 
requirements. 

MR. MILLER: Can I just go ahead and 
say a little bit more? 

MR. BLUNT: You bet. Keep going. 

MR. MILLER: I think all of us who 
have punch cards have been, in most instances 
other than some of the issues we have in larger 
cities, been very satisfied with it. It's 
worked well. The citizens in Cape County have 
been very satisfied. We've had recounts and 
things that have went well. And as far as the 
turnout and how it turned out at the end, it's 
worked well there. All of those -- if there, if 
now what we have and you just mentioned it, the 
only change we go to is the optical scan, if we 
go to optical scan, what's -- to us that's had 
punch cards, even though it may be a different 
system, it would appear that we're going 
backwards. I don't mean that badly to optical 
scan. Going back to punch card. Go to optical 
scan. We're going back to paper ballot. Now 
we're going back another way with it. And the 
only thing that I see that possibly we're 
accomplishing with it is the machine that would 
be the second chance voting. 

So in Cape County itself, just by buying 
the machines to have these particular precincts 
to offer the second chance voting, which is, 
they tell me between five and $6,000, 40 
precincts. That's $240,000. We may not get 
that. We obviously can't handle the cost. And 
-- and I -- I do want to compliment Matt on the 
issues and the programs that he put forward. I 
think it's been realistic. I think we out here 
with the punch cards and the systems, we just 
don't want to -- as we represent our systems, we 
don't want to get caught with that kind of money 
having to do it. We think it's unrealistic and 
simply not what we should be doing and intend to 
do out there and out there where we're having 
the vote. 

I know there's issues out there between 
the advocacy -- between punch card and optical 
system. But I know in our county and Randy, and 
I don't know who else, our citizens are -- I 
mean, they've been happy. We had to go through 
the training period for the first time. And we 
can't buy the readers and still be a hundred 
thousand dollars down. We can't get the -- the 
vote for those, then in some way however you 
want to express it -- that's another six -- 
we're down to $300,000 before we start without 
any money. So as the county clerk, I -- you 
know, I wouldn't go for that for the system of 
Cape County. We'd all like to have electronic 
and go through that training that worked right, 
paper trail and have all that. But there's not 
enough money out there to do it. So what I 
don't -- what I don't want us to do is have that 
-- I shouldn't say this -- dog and pony show out 
there that we've got all these new systems going 
on and we're going make this big deal, and it's 
not realistically going to happen. 

I know this is what this is for, and I 
know it's the Secretary of State's office and 
their approach to it, and I -- I don't question 
that whatsoever. I compliment Matt. And the 
things they've done, we're very happy with. But 
there's -- it's an issue that's not real if we 
don't get the it to the people of what's going 
to really happen. So I -- I've said all I want 
to. 

MR. BLUNT: Well -- 

MR. MILLER: That's all I want to 
say. 

MR. BLUNT: It's well said. And the 
reason both elections is an important part of 
the offering testimony and serving on the state 
plan committee is so we can really implement 
whatever the State plan committee -- what we 
ultimately decide upon as the state plan. I do 
think you're correct. I think because of some 
dog and pony shows there is, in some voters' 
minds, some citizens' minds a perception of 
what's going to change out there that just isn't 
-- we just don't have the funds to meet some of 
those expectations, and we do need to begin to 
let people know where the -- how -- how big a 
transformation this is going to be. 

MR. MILLER: I didn't mean that 
towards your office. It has to be realistic. 

MR. BLUNT: It's does have to be 
realistic, and I think we're making implements 
to the election process. In most places in our 
state the election process is sound. We're 
making improvements to that process. There's 
always room for improvement. We'll continue to 
do that. That needs to be tempered by a sense 
of realism about what's true and possible. So 
-- thank you all for being here. Certainly, I 
know the other members will remain here to -- to 
accept testimony and just continue this 
discussion, which I think is helpful. Thanks. 

MR. POWELL: Well, Rodney, I think 
you're right. And we understand, too, but -- 
but in order to get, you know, the Feds are 
bringing some money to the table. And for us to 
-- to be -- to qualify and get any of it, we 
have to have a state plan. So in order -- and 
that's what we're trying to do here is find out 
what we can do, and one thing we can come up 
with so that we can qualify for it if funds do 
come. Now, I don't -- I'm not sure if there's 
going to be changes to the Help America Vote 
approach somewhere when they find out that maybe 
there's some things we just can't do. I mean, 
some of these are federally unfunded mandates 
that -- that we can't meet. So maybe -- so what 
other suggestions that you would make on what we 
could do because you're saying we have to have 
at least one machine in each -- every polling 
place so that regardless of your disability you 
would be able to cast your vote in private. So 
how do we meet that? 

MR. MILLER: Are we being prejudice 
where we have one or two machines in a couple 
areas where they can be used? Is something 
wrong that? Is that more realistic cost? 

MS. TRANKLER: If you had one or two 
machines in your area -- 

MS. VANDELICHT: Excuse me. Would 
you state your name, please? 

MS. TRANKLER: I'm Lee Trankler. 
I'm director of the Region 9 Health and Welfare 
on Disability. 

MR. POWELL: Would you spell your 
name, please? 

MS. TRANKLER: T-r-a-n-k-l-e-r. And 
I'm from Scott County. If you had a machine or 
two in your area that would serve folks with 
disabilities to come in and vote, would they be 
allowed to switch polling places, to come to the 
poll where -- see, I'm from a very small town, 
and I'm not allowed -- we only have two polling 
places in my town and I can't switch from one to 
the other. So if there's going to be a problem 
with folks with disabilities getting to the 
machine that they can vote at, then that's not 
any good. 

MR. MILLER: The law says particular 
problem -- and it can be switched to a precinct 
where they'd be more accessible. Because, you 
know, some of the counties -- some places we've 
got precincts, they've got a garage, and that's 
all we've got. I mean, if you can find any 
place. So somebody -- you know, you want it to 
be accessible and everybody tries to get 
accessible. The law says now you have to switch 
that to another precinct. 

MS. TRANKLER: Okay. I don't see a 
problem with that as long as there's not a 
hold-up in elections missed because of there 
being a hold-up on their cards being changed or 
whatever. 

MR. FORRESTER: Of course, part of 
-- of it is has been and some of the other 
testimony has been the ballot issue, whether you 
would have the corresponding ballot to that 
disabled person. And I can tell you of the five 
public hearings we've had, this is the only 
public hearing that we have not had significant 
-- at least up till now significant testimony 
from the disability community on their specific 
needs and -- and it has been a -- a big focus in 
the four previous hearings, I think, as to how 
that goes. So, I mean, I -- I understand what 
you're saying dollars and cents. The other 
question I'd have because we do have so many 
county clerks here that I've heard that I 
thought had some interesting -- that I could see 
some problems with as well is there was some 
suggestion with the dollars and cents that there 
may come a time when we have mega precincts 
instead of where you have -- how many precincts 
do you have to vote at now, John? 

MR. DUNIVAN: We have 25 in Butler 
County. We had talked to -- some counties had 
talked about combining precincts. We have ten 
townships in Butler County. You say we have to 
buy these machines. Let's put a machine in each 
township. Well, if you get into town here, 
Reid, and I've got five precincts in town and 
four other ones all in these different townships 
and after those are in the 2500 registered voter 
database, I'm going to have lines -- we'll put 
somebody at the end of the line at 7:00 of the 
presidential election day and they'll be voting 
at 1:00 in the morning. 

MR. MILLER: I don't think mega 
precincts -- I mean, this is my first response. 
I just don't see it working because I've got 
precincts right now that need to be -- we've got 
some precincts out there that have to drive the 
15, 18 miles. Are you going to bring them in 
where they have to drive 15, 18 miles to come 
vote? 

MR. FORRESTER: And, again, I just 
threw it out as a suggestion. I don't think 
that's a mandatory of the plan. I think it was 
-- you just throw it out there to say, you know 
-- I think as we go forward, we all may have to 
look outside the box a little of what we're -- 
we're doing. 

MR. MILLER: The ballot issue is an 
issue, but I don't think it's a problem, 
especially with two or three precincts that 
can't be handled. We're probably going to have 
to face it in the future sometime anyways. 
Before it's all over, we know it's going to -- 
we're going to have early voting. It's going to 
have to. So the ballot issue is going to have 
to be faced where you're you've got to know 
everybody in just one or two areas. So I don't 
see -- I don't it as a problem. But I see it -- 
I see it as handling more realistically than 
where we -- if we have two or three throughout 
the area where we have 30 -- we don't have to 
buy 37 others -- others at 6,000 which is around 
$180,000. It's -- that's the way I see it. 

MR. ISBELL: Your idea of the second 
chance voting, the best election I've ever seen 
was the November 2001 election Cosa Vo. And one 
of the clerks said, Well, the reason it was was 
because one of the reasons was because of funds 
to use on it. And that's probably true. I 
don't know if it would work or not, but they 
hand -- they hand deliver these people to the -- 
to the ballot. They saw that they voted. And 
they absolutely took them to the ballot box. 
Are you sure this is, you know, what you want to 
do? And they just -- you know, right to the 
ballot box and then they put their ballot in. 

MR. MILLER: I think we'd all like 
to have a perfect ballot when they come in. And 
having a second chance, especially in the 
optical scan which you guys have seen there, 
punch card, I don't know if that's available. 
I've heard about it where you put them in. But 
I don't know in your instance -- but where you 
have the second chance voting like that, you now 
create another issue of lines of people going 
back to voting. And that's what the law says 
and then we've got to work out. I still think 
the voter has some responsibility to vote their 
ballot. 

MR. POWELL: If you do that, you'd 
have to go to secret ballot. 

MR. MILLER: Pardon me? 

MR. POWELL: If you did that, you'd 
have to -- 

MR. MILLER: Sure. You know, I 
don't want to -- I want every ballot to be a 
perfect ballot. But not everybody is going to 
get it exactly right, and we don't have many 
over votes. We don't have a lot of it. It 
shows up on ours. But -- I don't know what the 
heck -- did I answer your question or get close 
to it? 

MR. POWELL: I think so. 

MR. MILLER: Okay. 

MR. POWELL: We stomped all over it. 
And, Becky, I'd like you or Gary both, either 
one, a little smaller rural areas, if you had a 
special machine just for the handicapped to use, 
are you afraid that you would disclose how that 
person voted then if -- if there's a dedicated 
machine just for them? I mean, that's kind of 
where I was going a while ago. Gary was saying 
how many handicapped people do you have that 
would vote at any given precinct. 

MR. HENSLEY: Only had one -- 

MS. YORK: I -- 

MR. HENSLEY: I'm sorry. 

MS. YORK: Go ahead. 

MR. HENSLEY: I only had one, a 
blind gentleman that they can vote. And that's 
only -- the only others I have in the handicap 
is maybe where my judges have to go to the car. 
They -- and no matter if I have the special 
machine or whatever, I could almost name them, 
they will -- they will still need to go to that 
car unless it's something like that type of 
computer that they can take out there and show 
them how to do it. 

MS. YORK: I think that you would 
have a problem if you only had one or two people 
that used a specific machine. And what I do in 
my county because we're very small is we -- for 
an example, we recently had a school bond issue. 
We had a very small number of absentee voters. 
When we only had four or five absentee voters, I 
don't even count those as a separate precinct. 
I went ahead and took those and divided them 
into the precincts in which those people would 
have voted because when you have a yes or no 
issue, you have a responsibility of those four 
absent voters all voted the same way, several 
people will come in and check, and they'll know 
how those people voted. And in our county, I 
have 17 precincts, four of which are already 
combined with other precincts. We're on optical 
scan. We only have three optical scan machines. 

I use one for a central counter and two are in 
my largest precinct. If we have to purchase a 
machine for every -- for every precinct, we're 
-- we're looking at over $75,000 for an initial 
outlay that we would have to pass on part of 
that cost sharing to our other political 
subdivisions which are already strapped for 
funds. And I think the thing we're not looking 
at is not only the initial outlay, but you have 
an additional -- in our county it costs about 
$3,000 a year just for the maintenance contract 
for the annual maintenance on those machines -- 
I did my machine test for the April election 
yesterday. We had 17 ballot styles because of 
the multi-districts. It took about an hour and 
a half to test those three machines. If you 
have a county that's going to have 50 machines, 
it would take days to do the machine test if we 
do it like we're supposed to, test every machine 
and give that ballot -- that ballot stack, 
everybody vote no one more than -- you know, the 
same number of votes. It would take days to 
test those machines. You have the cost of 
training your judges. Right now, my election 
judges can come and pick up supplies and take 
them and have them the morning of the election. 
If you have these machines and these boxes, you 
have to hire somebody or someone to go out and 
distribute your equipment. I mean, there's a 
lot of expense other than just our initial 
outlay for equipment. 

And I -- you know, and I think that we 
need to make voting as accessible to everybody 
as we can. We're doing that satisfactorily in 
Ripley County through curbside voting or we 
allow people to come to our central location 
where we have every ballot style available if 
they want to come there to vote. And I think 
that we are somehow penalizing the 99 percent of 
people that don't need assistance to -- you 
know, I understand most people need assistance. 
But we need to look at the numbers there. You 
know, we have to find another way to accommodate 
them to allow that 1 percent to be able to vote 
in secrecy and as conveniently as possible. You 
know, we need to find some fine line there that 
we can be able to take care of everybody's 
needs. 

If we have to combine more precincts, you 
know, I have one rural -- I have one rural 
precinct that has less than 110 registered 
voters. I can't see spending 70 some hundred 
dollars to put a machine in there for whatever 
small percentage of those hundred of people are 
going to vote that day. Then on the same token, 
I can't see them coming and having to drive 20 
miles to come to the next polling place. 

MR. HENSLEY: I've got the same 
instance. I've got a precinct that votes 29, 
and I can almost tell that you before -- if you 
want to come over there the next time, it will 
be 29,30. But if I combine that, they will 
drive 29 miles, and then 29 people will feel 
like I've discriminated against them if I change 
that voting precinct. It doesn't matter what it 
costs. And -- and that's exactly what -- this 
early voting and everything else, these schools 
are getting to the point they say we cannot pass 
a bond issue to take and put a roof on our 
building, and it's costing us X number of 
dollars because we have to hold these elections. 
I've even heard encouraged them to go to the 
legislature to see what can be done about the 
numbers. I don't know if that can be done on 
the school boards. I mean, one school district 
down there had to pay $1900 and didn't even have 
any opposition. Do you see what I'm saying? 

And Mr. Fraley is so -- he's like me. He's so 
conservative that he -- I mean, he comes up 
there with the check and almost -- puts it down 
and says, Gary, I can't stand this. You know, 
but that's what we're -- 

MS. VANDELICHT: May I make a few 
comments? I'm Gayla Vandelicht. I'm the 
Director of Elections. And we can argue the 
point about having a machine that guarantees 
privacy in each precinct. The bottom line is we 
have to do it. We don't have any ifs, ands or 
buts about this. We have to do it. And I think 
one of the things -- 

MR. MILLER: Who will? The State? 
I'm sorry I interrupted. 

MS. VANDELICHT: Someone would. 
Someone would. And I would imagine, to be quite 
honest, it would be someone from the disability 
community that would show up, and they would 
have the right to do that. The thing that 
you're going to have to adjust to, and this is 
part of the education I think in training 
committee, is, you know, when you talk about 
having the machine that someone who is -- and 
we're talking about -- let's face it, about the 
visually impaired, this is more apt to happen. 
This is not a machine that's used only by the 
visually impaired. Anybody that walks in can 
use this machine. So it isn't the effect that 
if you have one blind voter, one visually 
impaired voter at a precinct, you're not going 
to say, Well, you're the only one that can use 
that machine. That isn't the case. You know, 
anyone can use that machine. And you're going 
to have to educate your voters to say that. 

There's so many clerks here, and I know they're 
well aware, the only machine that we know of 
right now that is capable of -- of guaranteeing 
privacy for every voter is what we call a DRE. 
It's a touch screen machine. And the cost 
varies. Now, you said, Becky, 7700 you thought? 

MS. YORK: I don't know for that 
type of machine. 

MS. VANDELICHT: You know, it will 
vary. And what we're hoping is we can -- as -- 
as a state, you know, purchase on one contract, 
and that will lower the cost. Therein lies the 
problem of the number of precincts you have and 
whether or not you're going to have to combine 
some precincts because the law says you have to 
have one of these machine at every precinct. If 
you have a precinct that only 29 people vote at, 
I mean, as much as those people may be 
accustomed to -- to voting next door to where 
they live, they may have to change the way they 
vote. They may have to change the place they 
vote. You may have to combine precincts. We 
don't have any choice. And, you know, part of 
the education and training committee, that's one 
of the things -- we have to deal with the fact 
that we have a lots of responsibilities we have 
to -- to -- we're ordered to do by this law. 
We have less money to do it with than was 
originally thought, you know, like a lot of 
things. We have less money. We have to meet 
the accessible standards. We have to -- in our 
office, we have to design and maintain a 
state-wide voter registration database that is 
accessible to all the county clerks. 

Pennsylvania just bid on a system, and their 
system is costing them 19.4 million dollars. So 
we're looking at something like that. 
One of the other charges, education and 
training, you know, we have to figure out how to 
educate the voters. We have to figure out how 
to educate election judges, look for new 
programs in that way. The punch card buyout 
system -- and just for the record, those of you 
that are on punch cards, the original bill you 
know, when it was thought it would be fully 
funded would have allowed $4,000 per precinct. 

We just got information from the general county 
office that we're going to have to be submitting 
our application in a few weeks, because the 
first part -- the first part of the bill has 
been funded less than originally thought. It's 
83 -- about 84 percent funded. That number has 
now droped to $3,354 per precinct. So those in 
punch cards, it's no longer $4,000 a precinct. 

It's $3300 a precinct. And you're right. You 
know, the cost above that if you want to replace 
a system -- but I just want to make those 
comments. It's -- we don't -- we don't have any 
-- we don't have any choice. You know, it's a 
good thing. I mean, we want to accommodate 
everyone, and everyone has the right to vote in 
privacy. But we just need to figure out how to 
best spend the money we have. 

MR. MILLER: I was questioning the 
point of choice. I don't believe that we have 
-- I don't believe we have to be -- with that 
kind of pricing have to do those things and take 
that money away from the citizens and people 
there and have to do that. I just don't believe 
it, don't think I'm going to. I don't mean that 
to be mean or act like I'm a big guy or 
anything. I just think it's absolutely wrong 
that they'd say we've got to do this. It's 
going to completely change the voting system, 
which is working and working right. I -- and I 
think -- you know, I don't know what you have to 
do to get the money. You know, do you have to 
give the punch card people sign on now? Do they 
have to sign on that they're going to change to 
get this machine? 

MS. VANDELICHT: What we're going to 
do -- and every state has to -- every state has 
that has punch card or lever machines has to 
indicate whether or not they're going to 
participate in the buyout program. We, as the 
State, are going to participate. We have to do 
that because we have to allow those counties 
that have made the decision to go to punch card 
as opposed to something else the opportunity to 
be able to reimbursed. 

MR. MILLER: But it's not mandatory. 

MS. VANDELICHT: No. It's not 
mandatory. It's not mandatory. 

MR. MILLER: But if you -- 
assuming -- 

THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me. I 
need them all to talk one at a time. 

MS. VANDELICHT: What will happen -- 
just a minute. What will happen is we will let 
all of you know. In fact, we've already told 
the counties we are going to participate. We 
already have, I think, six counties who have 
indicated they're going to participate. They've 
already switched punch card to optical scan. 
The federal government will give us $3,354 per 
qualifying precincts. How many precincts do you 
have? 

MR. MILLER: I'm going to say 40. 

MS. VANDELICHT: 40. You have 40 
precincts. So they're going to give 120,000, 
you know, ballpark. 

MR. MILLER: Can't buy them -- 

MS. VANDELICHT: For Cape Girardeau 
County. Rodney is going to come to us and say, 
I'm not going to participate. So we're going to 
have to give that money back. 

MR. MILLER: I'm sorry. The law 
says we have to give them second chance voting. 
So I've got to have all those precincts. I've 
got to have one of the readers in every precint 
to offer second advance voting. Why don't -- do 
I go to the education business? 

MS. VANDELICHT: The law says if you 
provide a significant or a sufficient amount of 
education and training to the voters, you do not 
have to have increasing -- 

MR. MILLER: Why do can't I use 
punch card? 

MS. VANDELICHT: You don't have to 
change your systems. That another thing to 
think of about. You know, voter education, you 
know, we talked about new posters at the polling 
place, inserts in the newspaper 

MR. FORRESTER: Loop video. 

MS. VANDELICHT: How many people 
read the posters when you go into vote? So 
we're looking for ideas, you know. If, you 
know, we have a lot of -- ask your -- your 
judges. Ask your voters. Those of you that 
aren't election officials, how would you educate 
the people that you're representing? How would 
you -- what do you think they would pay 
attention to? What do you think they would 
read? What would they watch? 

MR. MILLER: Take them by the hand. 
Walk them up to. 

MR. DUNIVAN: I know that there's 
money available on punch card buyout. Is there 
money available for the -- is it the DRE or ADA? 
I'm taking about the handicaps. Do you have 
money available for that? 

MS. VANDELICHT: I tell you what, 
I'm going to let Terry Garrett -- Terry Garrett 
is our general counsel. Terry, we are going to 
have money available for that. 

MR. DUNIVAN: Do you have any idea 
what percentages it is? Is it 20/80 or 50/50 or 
80/20? 

MR. GARRETT: Right now what you're 
talking about is the -- is the DRE, the 
accessible polling place and accessibility. 
That's in what's called Title 3. And there's 
Title 3 money that's going to come available. 
It's not been appropriated yet. We're hoping 
it's going to be appropriated to address that. 
And that requires a 5 percent State match. And 
that's -- again, that's one of the things that 
the State Planning Committee is looking at, how 
are we going to -- to match that. You can match 
it by other things just in the straight general 
revenue from the State. Some of the things the 
counties are doing will count as a State match. 
So that's the -- some of the things we're 
looking at, how to mix all of that together and 
come up with that with that money. 

MR. DUNIVAN: I heard the 5 percent 
statement. What is the political subdivisions 
in election authorities? Do we have to put up 
anything or is the government going to furnish 
the other 95 percent. 

MR. GARRETT: No. That's another 
thing we're going to do in the State plan. What 
are we going to -- how are we going to 
distribute the money to the counties from the 
State? Are we going to just give straight 
grants? Are we going to have a revolving loan 
program where we loan money to the counties that 
they pay back at a low rate of interest so we 
can keep a pot of money perpetuated for years to 
come. 

MR. DUNIVAN: What's the timeline? 
is that '04 or '06? When does the federal law 
say we have to have that machine in the 
precinct? 

MR. GARRETT: The -- the -- it's -- 
yeah. January 1st, '06 -- 

MS. VANDELICHT: January 1st. 

MR. GARRETT: -- for that. There's 
deadlines in '04, and there's some deadlines in 
'06. 

MR. DUNIVAN: It's '06. Are you 
going to get an extension on that, Gayla? 

MR. GARRETT: Well, I know one of 
the things we're looking at -- one of the things 
we're looking at -- one of the things -- the 
only way we're eligible for the extension on 
state-wide voter database, it has to be in place 
before January 1st of 2004. We can get an 
extension for good cause to 2006. But I know 
that Secretary Blunt has -- has stated that he 
is in favor of making every effort to get in 
compliance by January of 2004. So we're working 
pretty hard on that one. 

MS. VANDELICHT: Trent Summers. 
Trent Summers. 

MR. MILLER: Wait. Wait a minute. 
What did you just say? I mean, I'm serious. 

MR. GARRETT: About the state-wide 
voter registration? 

MR. MILLER: You said it's just the 
database, not the other? 

MR. GARRETT: Yeah. 

MR. MILLER: By January 1st, 2004, 

MR. GARRETT: Yeah. State-wide 
voter database. 

MR. SUMMERS: One DRE at every 
polling place. One thing the State Planning 
Committee was looking into -- currently looking 
into is whether or not the option is for us to 
lease -- the counties to lease a DRE in the 
first election rather than everyone go out and 
buying one for precincts if we can lease one on 
a temporary basis so we can -- 

MR. DUNIVAN: Figure out how to buy 
it. 

MR. SUMMERS: Which ones work better 
in each jurisdiction. 

MS. YORK: I'm somewhat confused. 
If we're going to have one of these in every 
polling place, why do we need to be worried 
about whether we're going to have optical scan 
or punch card or anything else and just use that 
for everybody? 

MR POWERS: Well, it's logical you 
could have hundreds of people voting that you 
couldn't have -- I mean, yeah, some precincts 
you probably could do it that way. 

MS. YORK: In some small counties, 
everyone could. If you've got one machine in 
that polling place right now, you'd have one of 
those. 

MS. VANDELICHT: You have one 
machine that they can vote with? You have -- 

MS. YORK: We have optical scan. So 
we have one machine that they're running their 
ballots through. I mean, we've got several 
people voting at one time. 

MR. SUMMERS: But they have to 
actually vote on that? 

MS. YORK: On paper. Right. 

MR. SUMMERS: The DREs, they have 
to -- 

MR. DUNIVAN: When you start 
purchasing those records or how many machines 
you need at the precincts, the vendors will tell 
you you need so many per registered voters. And 
the number used to be somewheres between 100 and 
250. So if anybody -- any counter clerk that 
has a precinct that has, say, 150 people 
registered there -- Becky's entirely correct. I 
believe she had that one machine that there that 
would cover it. 

MR. MILLER: Do you know how happy 
they'll be if you have 50 percent turnout? 

MS. VANDELICHT: What I was saying 
is that our administrative rules right now 
address how many voters per machine. And I'm -- 
I can't recall the numbers. Does anyone -- 

MR. SUMMERS: I think it's a 
hundred. 

MR. HENSLEY: I'd say it was up 
there some because I would use one machine who 
voted three or 400, and I have no problem with 
that machine. 

MS. VANDELICHT: I'm not talking 
counters specifically. I'm talking -- 

MR. HENSLEY: Right. I -- 

THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me. I 
need everybody to speak one at a time. 

MS. VANDELICHT: I am talking that 
the machine that you physically have to go up 
and punch or physically have to go up and use 
the touch screen. And if I could address the 
touch screen machines right now, last year in 
the legislature, we approved -- or the 
legislature approved the use of electronic 
voting in Missouri, the touch screen machines. 
We have -- as Matt was noting earlier, we have 
not certified any equipment as of yet. We are 
waiting to do that. Several vendors -- 
actually, a lot of vendors have approached us 
about certifying their equipment in Missouri, 
and we're reviewing that equipment right now. 
We are looking for equipment which has a paper 
trail, which has a paper ballot along with it. 

Most of those machines --in fact, all of those 
machines have, you know, audio feature where a 
visually disabled voter could wear earphones and 
would be able to vote in privacy. So when we do 
reach the point of certifying some of those 
machines, we have already approved the use of 
them in Missouri. We just haven't certified any 
particular machines yet. 

MR. POWERS: Any other comments? 

MS. TRANKLER: I just wanted to 
bring one more point out about the voters who 
have disabilities. The reason there may be low 
voter turnout is because the place not be 
accessible or they know they can't vote on the 
machine that's in there anyway. So they don't 
show up to vote because they can't -- they can't 
vote by themselves. So I know in -- we serve 
nine counties over in the Sikeston area. And 
based on the 2000 census information that we 
got, I came up with a -- almost 20 percent of 
the people in the nine counties were over age 18 
and could potentially vote. I mean, they may 
choose not to. They may not be registered 
voters. You have other issues of guardianship 
or other things that come in there. You know, 
potentially almost 20 percent of people with 
disabilities -- it was broken down. People with 
disabilities could potentially vote in those 
nine counties. So I don't think it's a small a 
number as -- as it's being portrayed maybe. And 
-- and the several folks have said that the 
folks in their precincts are happy with the way 
it's -- that they vote and everything. I don't 
know if that's just an impression or if they're 
asking people if they like the way that they 
vote or, you know, curbside whatever. But I 
would be real interested in finding out how 
people with disabilities who are voting curbside 
or have somebody in the booth with them are 
actually pleased with not being independent and 
confidential. 

MR. FORRESTER: I can tell you from 
other public testimony at other hearings it has 
been a big issue and it is not well received by 
those folks. I mean, again, that's just -- I'm 
just saying the people that were here at the 
hearings I participated in, that's the testimony 
that we've had at the hearings that I've 
participated in. That's been one of the big 
issues that -- that, you know, not being able -- 
you know, they didn't have a privacy curbside 
voting or others. And they were hoping that 
this law would address that. 

MR. POWERS: If your county is like 
mine, a lot of the people need special 
assistance come directly to our office and go to 
absentee. And until we really got into that 
here in the last few weeks or months, I didn't 
realize maybe I hadn't done a good enough job of 
making that information available to the public. 
And maybe it's a matter, again, of education to 
help maybe resolve some of this. Maybe if we'd 
be more proactive, maybe this wouldn't be coming 
hard to us now as it is. 

MR. ISBELL: Now, too, I think most 
of the clerks in here -- I'm a county clerk. We 
may not be happy with, you know, the way the law 
is written, but I think all of us are -- are 
doing what the law says. And the law says you 
don't -- 

MS. TRANKLER: Oh, I don't dispute 
that at all. 

MR. ISBELL: I think that's what all 
the clerks are saying. It's going well because 
we're fulfilling what the law says. We have to. 
We need to do. 

MR. POWERS: You need to state your 
name. 

MS. COLEMAN: Jane Coleman, Region 9 
counsel -- or Region 8 county clerks' office. 

MS. VANDELICHT: Could you spell 
your last name? 

MS. COLEMAN: C-o-l-e-m-a-n. I 
agree with -- with what she has said. And I 
serve a ten county region, including Oregon 
County. And I do feel like many people with 
disabilities are somewhat intimidated, even 
though there are some accommodations that are 
made for them. They're really not sure that 
they're welcome there or that they're going to 
get the accommodations and assistance that they 
need and be comfortable in doing that. I don't 
think they're educated in the way that they 
should be. And I think there's a lot of work 
that needs to happen here in order to encourage 
people with disabilities to register to vote. I 
think the numbers are small probably of the 
people that do turn out. But I think there are 
other issues that go along with that to explain 
why that is. And I don't think it just is 
surrounding the machine. I think it has to do 
with educating the -- the people in the 
community. 

MS. YORK: And I agree. That may be 
a problem. But we're talking about the small 
percentage of people that have a special need. 
It would be our percentage of voter turnout. 

MS. COLEMAN: Exactly. 

MS. YORK: There might be some 
underlying reason like you're explaining that 
these individuals hesitate to even register to 
vote. 

MS. TRANKLER: Exactly. Because 
they may have the -- the fear -- it may not be a 
realistic thing, but it is definitely a fear 
that they have that -- 

MR. POWERS: How can we overcome 
that, or what can we do as election authorities 
then to address that issue? How can we educate 
them? Or what are your recommendations? 

MS. COLEMAN: Well, I certainly 
believe it needs more direct contact with people 
with disabilities and agencies that work with 
people with disabilities to explain how their 
needs can be met. I don't think there's one 
simple way to do it because too many people have 
too many different ways of learning and 
communicating. I think that you're going to 
need to help other people in the -- in each 
community and the agencies that work with 
people. And also maybe survey some of these 
people with disabilities to determine what would 
work best, what would make you feel more 
comfortable, how could we meet your needs 
besides having the machine that's there. How 
can we help you feel more comfortable in coming 
out and voting? 

MR. POWERS: Okay. 

MS. COLEMAN: I don't know that 
there's one simple way to do that. But I think 
that is a real key issue that needs to be 
addressed. 

MR. POWERS: Thank you. Is there 
any other comment or -- Trent, did you have -- 

MR. SUMMERS: I'm working with the 
accessibility group on the State plan. And do 
you have any comments on, in your opinion, what 
are the biggest obstacles right now accessing 
the poll? 

MS. COLEMAN: Yes. Transportation 
is certainly an issue. I may -- 

MR. SUMMERS: To the polling place? 

MS. COLEMAN: Yes. It's an issue in 
-- in all the ten counties that -- that I work 
in. And I know. And, yeah, you can do an 
absentee ballot. But if you're talking about 
including people with disabilities in the voting 
process, you have to make it really accessible. 
And sometimes a person may want to get there. 
They may understand the voting process, but 
getting there is a huge issue for them. And, 
you know, that -- and it's not just 
transportation to vote. It's transportation, 
you know, over every issue. But I think that is 
one really key problem. 

Literacy is another issue that I see 
often. It isn't that they don't have the 
intelligence, but they lack the ability to read. 
And I don't know if you people know anybody who 
doesn't know how to read, but that's terribly 
intimidating. It's a very embarrassing thing 
for you to be an adult and not know how to read. 
It's very frustrating. And so there are a lot 
of other issues that intertwine with -- with 
helping people be able to vote. It's -- I don't 
think there's one huge issue. But those are two 
big issues that I see. 

MS. TRANKLER: And I wonder if -- if 
another issue may be that they don't understand 
it's their right to vote. 

MS. COLEMAN: Exactly. That is 
true. 

MS. TRANKLER: It may be that 
simple. 

MR. SUMMERS: More education of how 
they can -- or what their rights are. 

MS. COLEMAN: Yeah. Because, 
really, a lot of these people have spent their 
whole lives being told, okay, you need to go do 
this and you need to go do that. Come on, we're 
going to go do this because this is what you 
have to do today. And when they -- they really 
discover that they have a right to vote and this 
that they need to be heard, when they have all 
the other obstacles that come into it that 
prevent them from doing something they're 
supposed to have a right to do. 

MS. TRANKLER: And I think society 
does, too, stops them because they don't -- I 
don't even know how to say it. Society does not 
see people with disabilities maybe as being 
worthy of voting as understanding what they're 
voting for and -- and even providing an 
opportunity for that. Just like she said, they 
may have direct staff that work with them every 
day and they pick them up and take them to 
Wal-Mart and they go shop at Wal-Mart, but 
voting day comes and they're not going to take 
them to the polls. 

MR. SUMMERS: Do you think -- keep 
in mind we have limited amounts of money and 
it's -- it wouldn't be possible to make every 
polling place physically acceptable -- 
accessible for every person with a disability. 
Do you think money would be better spent 
educating these people of their options such as 
curbside voting or absentee or what -- or 
working on ways to help them get to the polling 
place or make more improvements on just getting 
into the polling place? Do you think the 
barrier is getting them to the polling place, or 
do you think the barrier is them being afraid 
that they don't have the right to participate 
or -- 

MS. COLEMAN: I think probably both 
are issues. But I think there are a large 
number of people who do not understand that they 
have the right. And until they understand the 
right, they're not even going to try to figure 
out a way to get to the polling place. 

MS. TRANKLER: I agree. 

MR. POWERS: Don, do you have a 
question? Don White. 

MR. WHITE: Don White with Stoddard 
County. We have a gentleman that is handicapped 
that comes by on a pretty regular basis sort of 
acting as an advisor or -- and I've talked to 
him about voting precincts. He's actually 
handicapped. And if you sit down and talk with 
those people, and I have for several hours with 
this guy, you can find out a lot, you know what 
I mean, about the problems you all have -- I 
mean, I've learned a lot about their problems, 
you know, from ramps on the side of concrete to 
the way the doors open to spaces that they need 
and all the stuff. And I wanted to say -- I've 
sat here quiet through all this election thing 
-- back -- we have an optical scan system, and I 
really believe that we probably have -- people 
have more confidence in the system than they 
probably ever have since I've been alive in 
Stoddard County from the paper back times to 
stuff you heard all the stories about election 
fraud. We hardly ever have any of that. So I 
have troubles getting election judges. But as 
far as our election system, I think it works 
really, really good. I have absolutely -- I am 
absolutely concerned about this new law messing 
us up. God help us. I'm just worried about how 
we're going to deal with it. As far as I'm 
concerned, we have a really good legislative 
process. We've done the recounts and have full 
confidence in the machine. I know that I -- I'm 
just concerned about creating these problems. 
Anyway, that's two different things, and I -- 
I'll shut up. 

MR. POWER: Thanks, Don. 

MR. HENSLEY: Can I say 
something? I'm Gary Hensley from Oregon County. 
On the handicap, I know I'm a small county, but 
that's something that -- I have a handicapped 
daughter. I served on the Senate Bill 44 for 
many years. My wife still serves on it. She's 
served on the board. And that is something we 
stress very heavy since I'm the county clerk 
that our sheltered workshop and our places that 
I see to it that at -- ASMPS bus is going 
around. This gentleman I talk with, he calls my 
office, and I make sure this man is there to 
vote. And I even call him on election day to 
make sure that he -- I know I'm a small county 
and you big counties cannot do that. But if 
there is a certain amount of limit of funds or 
certain amount of limits that a county clerk can 
do -- maybe I'll take it a little deeper because 
I do have a handicapped child and she does vote 
every time. 

She's not missed since she was 18 years old that 
I know of. My wife won't let me take her 
because she says I influence her. But anyway, 
we do stress all that. But we can only do so 
much. The organization or wherever, if they're 
in support of building complexes or wherever 
they're at, that's -- their coordinator is going 
to have to take care of a certain amount of 
that. No amount of how much money we get -- you 
know, how much -- how much for transportation or 
anything else, we cannot get there unless their 
overseers are taking care of that situation. 

MS. COLEMAN: Right. And I agree 
with that. I mean, I wouldn't want to imply 
that it's your responsibility to do that. 
Transportation, though, in itself is -- 
certainly is an issue for a lot of people, 
especially in rural counties such as Oregon -- 

MR. HENSLEY: We've even called and 
asked if the STMS bus is going to be available 
that day. And, you know, because I do get 
calls. I see to it they're where they're at. 
And I have good workers that will do that. They 
see that that bus is available. 

MR. POWERS: And again, this may 
come back to education, not just to the voters, 
but to our communities that help provide those 
types of services. I've had the same 
conversations with our county transportation 
systems that we have. And ask, Can your buses 
stop at the polling places or can they bring 
them to the courthouse and -- and for absentee 
voting. And, you know, initially I got a lot of 
resistance to that. They thought I was being 
political. I wasn't being political. I was 
just trying to get people -- people to be able 
to vote. Just -- 

MR. HENSLEY: That's something I 
forgot to touch on. You've got to be very 
careful as an election authority how far you go 
with that because you will get labeled 
politically on that issue. Thank you for 
bringing that up. I meant to say it. And 
you -- 

MR. POWERS: I've asked the same 
questions and -- and found it -- 

MS. COLEMAN: Oh, I know. I know. 
I know. 

MR. POWERS: Any other comments? 

MR. WHITE: One other thing. I 
don't know if everyone else has the same problem 
but I have like -- we're a township organized 
county. Some of the rural townships that we 
have, we really don't have good voting 
facilities available. We still use the 
residential homes. And I don't -- they're 
anything but handicapped accessible. But we 
have them, we don't have store buildings. 
There's no tax supported buildings. And you're 
left to deal with an individual. And I -- we 
have several residential homes. I know that's 
not good. But what --what do you do about that? 

MS. YORK: Well, that was something 
I was going to bring up. If we're going to have 
machines available to help the disabled vote, it 
really doesn't do any good if they can't get in 
there. 

MR. POWERS: Well, I think -- 

MS. YORK: So that maybe where we're 
going to have to combine these polling places 
and have those that have the machine and people 
can get to them. 

MR. POWERS: I think one of the 
requirements is that -- that -- that system that 
we use for -- for the handicapped voting is also 
portable so they can go to curbside. I think 
it's one of the requirements, I believe, of that 
it has to be portable enough they can go to 
curbside. 

MR. GARRETT: But that's an 
important point because -- 

MR. POWERS: Because the issue is 
about voting in privacy, not about necessarily 
having access to the polling place as much as 
having access to voting in privacy. So -- 

MS. YORK: I may be really stupid 
here, but what's the difference of voting in 
your car on the machine or voting in your car on 
the paper, except for the visually impaired, I 
assume? 

MR. POWERS: Yeah. I think that 
the difference is -- is there -- 

MS. YORK: You were going to ask the 
same question? 

MR. POWERS: We're going to the very 
extreme of -- there is system sense for 
everybody, regardless of handicap. 

MS. YORK: Right. 

MR. POWERS: So I think that -- 

MR. ISBELL: I will say this. 
People on this committee -- and we went through 
this with Gayla, the same thing that we're going 
through today with the clerks when they first 
went through it because -- and I think you guys 
went through it the first time you went to the 
federal government, you know, it's just -- you 
know, there's a lot of things that we can go to 
the federal government first and talk to them. 
Limited. 

MR. POWERS: You've got to 
understand, some of the -- the people at the 
federal level believe Wendy is a conservative. 
So -- I'm sorry. Allen Lutes, Wayne County 
clerk. 

MR. LUTES: Along with that comment 
that you just made there, the federal government 
didn't listen to us then because we weren't 
aware of this maybe until he talked to them. I 
know this is in the law, and, Gayla, I know 
we're going to have to abide by it, but that's 
by 2006. We know that they're always rewriting 
laws and reworking laws. So still yet what 
we're saying here and dealing with, couldn't we 
still possibly get them to change the law to fit 
certain situations, certain counties where we've 
got some representatives here that work with 
disabilities who said it possibly will work if 
we had two or three central locations where they 
could go and vote but we didn't have to have one 
of these handicapped accessible in each 
precinct. Why not make better use of the funds 
that may be available or not even available? 
I mean, I know we've got to deal with it now. 
But can't we work towards that, too, all along 
statement maybe rewording the law. 

MR. POWERS: I think each and every 
one of you have the avenue to go and bring that 
same point to your federal representative. And 
-- but that's not the intent of this commission 
or this -- these committees, because we're 
having to financers to the mandates that are 
being given to us. But I think every one of you 
has that right to go and try to get that type of 
message out. And I encourage you to do that 
because you -- if there's enough in comments, 
maybe -- maybe they will listen. But that's not 
in the purview of what we're doing here. 

MR. LUTES: One other comment. 
Gayla, a while ago you said that education could 
circumvent the need for punch cards or the 
second chance voting. Does that cover optical 
scan or optical scan subject to second chance 
voting? 

MS. VANDELICHT: Yes. I hate to use 
the work circumvent. Somehow -- that would 
apply with any kind of voting, whether it be 
optical scan or punch card if the voter is 
educated in what an undervote is and what an 
overvote is. You know, we all know that some 
people undervote and overvote on purpose. 
Having those automatic readers, those readers in 
the precincts has proven to be a problem because 
when the card goes in, you know, red lights 
start flashing. Some states have had voters 
complain that they're being made to look stupid 
in front of other voters when it may have been 
their intent to not vote in a particular race. 
So education could work for both optical scan 
and punch card. 

MR. POWERS: That wasn't the mandate 
of -- 

MS. VANDELICHT: What? 

MR. POWERS: That wasn't the mandate 
that followed -- not making -- any other 
comments? 

MR. HENSLEY: One other thing. 
We're having trouble getting elections judges 
with all this going on, it sounds to me. 

MR. FORRESTER: Let me say that is 
one of the things that this legislation deals 
with is trying to bring younger folks in, and I 
think I alluded to earlier that, you know, we're 
trying to layout some guidelines that maybe will 
reach out either to older high school kids that 
are -- that are 18 or to some college kids for 
no those two have either community college or 
university in their -- in their communities. 
So, I mean, there is some effort there, and I 
think it's been said at a lot of public hearing 
that the average age of election judge is about 
70. So I think people are aware it's an issue, 
and it's something this legislation is trying to 
address. 

MR. POWERS: Well, Becky's 
absolutely right when she was talking about the 
other cost behind this initial cost. And, I 
mean -- because if we program some type of 
device that audibly speaks to you, somebody has 
to create that wave file. And if you have 84 
different splits or whatever, somebody's got to 
program each one of those different ballot 
styles that you have. So, it is a lot. 

MS. YORK: Well, right. You have 84 
different recordings because if you're -- 
different ballot styles. 

MR. POWERS: Do you have a closing 
comment? 

MR. DUNIVAN: If you guys would 
indulge, me and this has nothing do with this 
meeting, I've got the assessor from Butler 
County here, he's the president of the 
assessor's -- past president. And he's got a 
bill that he is really concerned about. And if 
you'll give him about three minutes after the 
meeting -- 

MR. POWERS: After this is over. 
Okay. 

MR. DUNIVAN: Right. 

MR. POWERS: Are there any other 
comments before we do this? 

MS. VANDELICHT: If I could just say 
on behalf of Matt and I, he had to leave early, 
but we'd like to thank you all for coming and 
participating. All of the testimony today will 
be given to the State Plan Committee as a whole, 
and everyone will have a chance to look at the 
testimony today. 

MR. POWERS: Thank you. We'll 
conclude this session. 

(The proceedings were concluded at 
3:40 p.m. on March 27, 2003.) 
 
REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 
 
STATE OF MISSOURI ) 
)ss. 
COUNTY OF OSAGE ) 
 
I, Monnie S. VanZant, certified Shorthand 
Reporter, Certified Court Reporter #0538, and 
Registered Professional Reporter, and Notary Public, 
within and for the State of Missouri, do hereby certify 
that I was personally present at the proceedings as set 
forth in the caption sheet hereof; that I then and 
there took down in stenotype the proceedings had at 
said time and was thereafter transcribed by me, and is 
fully and accurately set forth in the preceding pages. 
 
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand 
and seal on April 14, 2003. 
 
Monnie S. VanZant, CSR, CCR #0539 
Registered Professional Reporter. 

(end)