OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE. STATE OF MISSOURI. PUBLIC HEARING. Wednesday, March 26, 2003. INDEX PAGE. TITLE PAGE. INDEX. DEPOSITION INFORMATION. APPEARANCES. SPEAKERS: Ann Morris 13. Mary Berry 25. Darrell Decker 29. REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE. OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE. STATE OF MISSOURI. PUBLIC HEARING. having been conducted at 1:30 p.m. on Wednesday, March 26, 2003, at The Library Center, Meeting Rooms A and B, 465 S. Campbell, Springfield, Missouri, before MATT BLUNT, Secretary of State of the State of Missouri, and having been reported by KAREN S. ROGERS, Registered Professional Reporter, Certified Court Reporter, and Notary Public in and for the State of Missouri. APPEARANCES: Panel Members: MR. MATT BLUNT. Secretary of State. 600 West Main Street. PO Box 1767. Jefferson City, MO 65102-1767. (573) 526-5076. MR. RICHARD STRUCKHOFF. Greene County, Missouri, Clerk. MR. GILBERT POWERS. Johnson County, Missouri, Clerk. MR. PAT CONWAY. Buchanan County, Missouri, Clerk. Reported by: MS. KAREN S. ROGERS, RPR, CCR No. 846. SPHERION DEPOSITION SERVICES. 3556 S. Culpepper Circle, Suite 105. Springfield, MO 65804. (417) 877-9700. PROCEEDINGS: SECRETARY BLUNT: We certainly want to thank so many of you for being here today. And I think the election process is important, and in our state I think we take pride in the fact that we have made some substantial steps forward to improve that process. But certainly we need to continue doing that. And public input is important in that process to ensure that we enact the best ideas in Jefferson City, ones that can really be carried out by local election authorities. Right after I was elected Secretary of State in November of 2000, I appointed a bipartisan commission composed of local election authorities to look at and examine our state's election laws and determine how we might improve our state's election standards. In that process the first thing we did was gather input around the state. And that public input was extremely important in crafting a set of proposals that really met the needs of our citizens. That is the purpose for accepting public input today as we craft the state plan. Really there are two reasons we have a state plan committee, and that plan committee is a very diverse group of local election authorities, people involved in political parties. Really any segment that you can think of that would have a particular interest in the election process is represented on the state plan committee. One of the missions, of course, is just to help us continue to improve our election process in our state and meet the needs of the citizens. Another is to fulfill a requirement that we submit a state plan to the federal government. And the state plan committee is helping me craft that document, and certainly this public testimony is very important to them and I know it's also very important to me as we continue forward. We are fortunate enough to have -- actually I should have said, I'm Matt Blunt, Secretary of State. I'm sorry. I just started to talk. We are fortunate to have several members of that committee with us and also some of the subcommittee chairs. And I will let them just say a little bit about what their subcommittee work is focused on. But of course one of the first appointments I made was to that bipartisan election reform commission and to the state plan committee was somebody that I've respected for a long time and does a fabulous job here in this jurisdiction ensuring that the election process is running the way that nobody challenges the integrity of the result and has absolute confidence in the process itself. And it was somebody who really has gained the respect of his colleagues and peers all across the state. So Richard Struckhoff, the Greene County clerk. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Thank you, Matt. Appreciate that. Matt placed me on his plan committee and asked me to chair -- be co-chair actually of a subcommittee. And our three areas include provisional voting, which the state did pass a law last year in anticipation of the federal law, so we're almost there on provisional voting. We do have to come up with a public access system after an election is over, a federal election, so that people who cast a provisional ballot can dial either a toll-free number or gain Internet access to find out if their vote was actually counted. We're also way ahead of the curve when it comes to voter ID, thanks to some suggestions that Matt made to the legislature last year that passed a law which almost mirrors what the federal law it. It's almost as though Matt had an inside track in Congress somehow that he knew what was going to be in this law. The other area was the statewide database. We already have a statewide database in Missouri, thanks to Roy I guess really got that kicked off toward the beginning and the fruition a few years after he was Secretary of State. But we have a ways to go with that, because under the federal law it has to be pretty interactive and almost up to the minute, and there's still some discussion as to how up to the minute it's going to have to be. So we do have some work to do there. I'll introduce my co-chair and a good friend of mine, a colleague, Pat Conway from Buchanan County. MR. CONWAY: Thank you, Richard. It's my privilege to be in Greene County today. I'm the county clerk in St. Joseph and Buchanan County. I also had the privilege when I was first elected as county clerk to serve with Matt's father, Roy, when he was the county clerk in Greene County and then with Richard. And we've had a tremendously well -- a good relationship. I'm also privileged to serve as the National Association of Counties representative on the board of directors for that association. And I just returned from Washington where we also met in our dealing with the Help America Vote Act; of course, it's federal legislation that we're attempting to comply with. And I must say -- and I want to credit Matt and his staff, Ann and Betsy and Gayla, his assistants, also who have helped us as his liaison -- Missouri is very far ahead of the curve as far as where implementation is at the present time. Our committee has met throughout the state. We'll be continuing to meet and start to write a plan next year. And we're tremendously interested in hearing from those people who are interested in the voting process. We realize, as not only the Secretary of State's office but local election officials, that we have to get people out to the polls and get them to vote. It's no longer just a process of sitting back and counting ballots on election night. And to make the polling places accessible, make them easier to vote, to explain the issues as much as we can, is an imperative thing for Missouri to conduct elections on a high -- as high a level as we can. And I think in the past we've maintained that high level. And I hope we can continue to do that, and I hope through hearings like this that we are allowed to get information from the public that we can implement into the new law. So thank you for being here. SECRETARY BLUNT: Thank you, Pat. And finally I'd like to introduce the Johnson County clerk, Gil Powers, who has served on the bipartisan reform commission that I mentioned and continues to serve today on the state plan committee. Gil. MR. POWERS: Thank you, Secretary Blunt. I want to also mirror some of the comments that the other two chairs have made in commending Secretary Blunt for being proactive from day one after taking office and promoting improvements in elections in protecting that system. And this is just a fine example of those efforts that he's made. In our committee, of course, we're also going to be meeting the -- writing the standards and suggestions for meeting the Help America Vote requirements. And this will be pertaining to the equipment and accessibility of the polls. One of the things that Help America Vote Act has done is created $10.5 million funds to help replace card punch systems for those districts that would like to do that. It's not a mandatory thing, but it does give us a financing instrument to do that. And that's a great part of this Act. We'll also be looking at second chance voting systems, accessibility for those who need assistance so that maybe they can now come to the polls and vote nassisted in privacy and respect their rights to vote as citizens. Of course, any system that we would want to look at would also have to have some type of manual audit capacity that would assure the integrity of the counts as well. But accessibility for individuals with disabilities is a major part of this. We'll be evaluating accessibility to the polling places themselves and how they can gain access at these polling places in the districts. We could go on and on here, but really what I would like to do is just hear from you, because we believe that is an important part of this. As election authorities we work very zealously to protect the election process, to make sure that it goes along great and that there's no -- our constituents have confidence in that election process. And so as we're protecting that, I would like to hear from you to see -- to take a chance to step back and see as an election authority if I've done something to maybe block your right to the vote. So this is a good opportunity for us to stand back and listen to what you have to say. So with that, I'm just going to be quiet and let us start getting to your questions. SECRETARY BLUNT: Thank you, Gil. I would like to say that there are other members of that state plan committee that are here and will be of course hearing the testimony. Those who aren't here have an opportunity, that I know many of them are taking advantage of, to read the transcript of what transpires here today. We are fortunate, we have two -- there's a federal commission, election assistance commission, has two members from each -- from each state, and both of those members from Missouri are here. One is -- was appointed by me, the general counsel of the Secretary of State's office, Terry Jarrett, serves on that federal commission, as does Mary Berry. And Terry's in the back, as is Mary Berry, who we'll hear from shortly as she presents some testimony to us. But to begin, we'll take them in the order we received their input. Ann Morris is here, and Ann is affiliated with the Southwest Center for Independent Living. COMMENTS BY ANN MORRIS: Well, you've already introduced me, so you know where I'm from. For anybody else, the Southwest Center for Independent Living is a local nonprofit agency that provides services and resources and advocacy for people with all disabilities. So of course my main thrust is disability oriented. I'm also a member of the Help Missouri Vote coalition, and that's made up of a great number of people from a variety of agencies who are also primarily interested in disability voting. Our issues for implementation include provisional ballots, and you did say you're on that committee. Within one week of election day a voter registration card is mailed to all voters whose provisional ballot was not counted. A voter casting a provisional ballot will be able to have their vote counted for all offices for which they qualify. And then a centralized voter list, you have a voter registration database. We are concerned about disability and poverty. Persons with disability or in poverty may be disenfranchised and not be on that list. So we would like to have that linked to a central electronic list where you get information from the DMV database for registering voters, and that could be used to correct common problems on a voter registration card once the voter's identification is confirmed. And then the uniform poll worker training, I think there's always a need for, and maybe repeated rather often. By no later than August of 2004 the Secretary of State will develop a statewide poll worker training addressing accommodations for voters with disabilities and non-English speaking voters, the proper procedure for administering and handling provisional ballots, curbside voting procedures, and general sensitivity training. You know, I can't represent everybody with a disability, but we hear a lot of stories. And it's -- sometimes it's just very difficult for them to vote under circumstances that we have. Disability access. We would like to see a nonsupplantation clause to bar local election authorities from supplanting federal funds into the general operating budget. I'm sure that won't happen, but because we're in such a bind here, you just never know. And then any voting system purchased with federal funds after January 1st, 2006, must be fully accessible and allow all voters, including voters with disabilities and blind and low vision voters, the ability to cast a secret independent and verifiable ballot. This has always been a big issue. I think it's the only group I know of with a disability that still cannot cast a secret ballot. And I know the problems associated with trying to make that happen, but we would certainly like to see that happen with this new money. And then voter's rights. On election day at every polling place we would like to see a voter's bill of rights posted, which I have a small copy here. I don't know -- have you seen this one? MR. POWERS: I haven't, no. MS. MORRIS: It's really nice. It will hang on the door frame or whatever. Do you want me to read these or are you in a hurry? SECRETARY BLUNT: We've got as much time as you do. MS. MORRIS: Well, you know, I don't know if everybody is aware of the voter's bill of rights, but these are already part of law, so I mean it's not really testimony. We would just like to see them posted. SECRETARY BLUNT: Uh-huh. MS. MORRIS: But if anybody wants to look at this, it's here. SECRETARY BLUNT: If someone wants to see a copy of that, to have one of those would be helpful to us. MS. MORRIS: Actually those are listed on here, and I can leave this with you. SECRETARY BLUNT: Please do. MS. MORRIS: Okay. SECRETARY BLUNT: Appreciate it. MS. MORRIS: Thank you. MR. POWERS: Don't leave. MS. MORRIS: Now the grilling, huh? SECRETARY BLUNT: First of all, I appreciate your comments. I know though that -- it seems Richard would have some questions. MR. STRUCKHOFF: No, no. Actually, I'll thank Ann. We've gone to her in the past for various things and suggestions and whatever. I'm sure we're going to be coming to you a lot in the future as we work toward these goals that you just outlined and that the bill mandates. Several of the things that you're asking for, the bill already mandates. MS. MORRIS: Right. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Now several of the hearings that we've held already -- and I may have asked you this in the past. But do you have any idea what percentage of blind voters can read Braille? Is there any statistic out there? MS. MORRIS: There is, and I don't know how old this is. I mean it's a few years old. They say about 10 percent. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Okay. MS. MORRIS: So it's not that great, and there's kind of a common perception that blind people read Braille, and that's not true, mainly because a lot of people who are losing their vision are older and you get glaucoma or whatever, and it's just much more difficult to learn at that age. MR. STRUCKHOFF: And actually that's the figure that I think I've used, and I must have gotten it from you. MS. MORRIS: Probably. MR. STRUCKHOFF: So thank you. MS. MORRIS: Yeah. It's not that great. MR. STRUCKHOFF: So Braille at least by itself is not really going to be the answer? MS. MORRIS: No, that won't solve everything, no. MR. STRUCKHOFF: We are currently looking at audio systems. MS. MORRIS: Mm-hmm. MR. STRUCKHOFF: And some of the people who have testified have said that they have actually used and sampled what's called the E-slate. Are you familiar with that or have you seen it in any of the conferences that you attend? MS. MORRIS: No, I haven't. Huh-uh. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Okay. MS. MORRIS: I have heard that audio balloting is very slow, I mean can take 20 to 40 minutes and that's just because you have to read through all of that. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Yeah. And not only that, but -- MS. MORRIS: And then, you know, I do know a person, and she's not alone, of course, who is not only completely blind but has quite a definite hearing impairment. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Mm-hmm. MR. POWERS: And that was going to be my question. Does that 10 percent of blind that read Braille, could that be a larger number then of the people who are also blind and maybe deaf that are required -- MS. MORRIS: Well, that number in itself is fairly small to be both blind and deaf. That's a pretty small number of the population. I don't know the exact percent, but you know, it's very small. Maybe 1. MR. STRUCKHOFF: But are there any reliable statistics somewhere that we can go to that you would know of? I mean the census is really inadequate. MS. MORRIS: Well, I could research it and see, you know, what's the most updated. MR. STRUCKHOFF: If you come across something, Ann, let me know. MS. MORRIS: Okay. MR. STRUCKHOFF: I would sure appreciate it. the census is really inadequate. There are people who claim some disability -- MS. MORRIS: Yeah, they don't ask -- and the reason they don't ask, "Are you disabled?" is because of the subjectivity of the answer. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Mm-hmm. MS. MORRIS: You know. I mean you can be missing two limbs and say, "Of course I'm not disabled." MR. STRUCKHOFF: Yeah. MS. MORRIS: And you can be missing a pinkie and say, "Oh, you know, I sure am. I need a handicapped parking tag." You know. All they ask is, "Are you working -- do you have a work disability between 60 and 64?" But that makes it harder because -- but there are places that do a lot of statistical -- gather statistics on disability. So I'll send you whatever I can find. MR. STRUCKHOFF: I appreciate it. MS. MORRIS: Because I know some of the places to look. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Because we're -- this is really going to be a daunting task for us just to set up an audio type system. MS. MORRIS: Uh-huh. MR. STRUCKHOFF: That would mean that in every precinct, where we may have three or four different ballot styles in one precinct, that somebody is going to have to read that information into I guess a .WAV file. That's going to have to be linked up with the technology to know when to turn the page and all that sort of thing. MS. MORRIS: Right. And then how do you cast the ballot? MR. STRUCKHOFF: By pressing various shaped buttons apparently is how this E-slate works. MS. MORRIS: Okay. MR. STRUCKHOFF: So we're -- MS. MORRIS: I'm not the assistive tech person. See, we've gotten so big that we have specialties now. I used to know all of it. Now I don't go to those conferences. MR. STRUCKHOFF: I think we're all about to become more astute in technologies. MS. MORRIS: Yes, we are. Yes. And thank goodness we have them. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Yeah. MS. MORRIS: You know. So but I think we're -- you know, in this area in Greene County are in pretty good shape as far as access to the polls. I'm sure it's not a hundred percent. MR. STRUCKHOFF: We're awfully close. Some of the places where we thought were accessible, you know, because a ramp was built may not be exactly ADA. MS. MORRIS: Mm-hmm. MR. STRUCKHOFF: But at least the number of complaints have really gone down. Again, the biggest concern that we're hearing, like we heard in our hearings, people want to cast a ballot in secret. MS. MORRIS: Sure, yeah, they do. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Yeah. MS. MORRIS: You know, if any one of us can do that, all of us should be able to. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Now I have to qualify that. Not everybody. We have a gentleman whom I -- I think you know him; I won't mention his name publicly but I'll tell you after the meeting. He comes before just about every election and votes. He comes to our office. Had a seeing eye dog for a long time. Recently he had to put the seeing eye dog down and is now waiting for another one. But he makes his way to the courthouse to vote an absentee ballot almost for every election. My staff reads the ballot to him and he indicates his preferences and we vote the punch card for him. And yesterday when he voted I said, "If you have a minute, please come into my office," so he did. And I said, you know, "What do you think of Help America Vote Act?" He was aware of it. He said, "I don't believe I need it." He said, "I trust, you know, your staff. I like to be able to come here." He said, "If you were going to spend that kind of money, I would prefer that you spend it on audio traffic signals. Because I was almost killed the other day trying to cross the street." Because he doesn't have the dog anymore. Now that's something that people could use every day. MS. MORRIS: But that's a real controversial subject too. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Oh, it is. It is. MS. MORRIS: Because some blind people hate those and others want them. That's a whole other day. MR. STRUCKHOFF: He apparently would like the opportunity to hear one. MS. MORRIS: Yeah. MR. STRUCKHOFF: But that's where I think most government officials are coming down. You know, these are systems that on the outside we would use five days out of the year. MS. MORRIS: Mm-hmm. MR. STRUCKHOFF: And we're compelled under this federal Act to have one of these devices at every precinct. And frankly, Ann, I'm not sure that many of them will be used at all. MS. MORRIS: What about people that are illiterate, would they not make use of an audible ballot? MR. STRUCKHOFF: They could. MS. MORRIS: Yeah. And the more people we get in from, you know, Romania and Mexico and wherever, well, sometimes you can understand a lot more spoken language that you can read. So I don't think it would strictly be used for people with visual problems. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Was this intended for me or to ask her? MS. BETSY BYERS: To ask her a question. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Okay. We were handed a question. Who do you recommend election authorities go to to get assistance on assessing the accessibility of their polling places? I know that your organization has helped us in the past. MS. MORRIS: Yeah. We can do that. The ADA Project can do it. MR. STRUCKHOFF: How many counties do you cover? MS. MORRIS: Eight. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Eight counties? MS. MORRIS: Mm-hmm. MR. STRUCKHOFF: I would suggest election authorities call Ann, Southwest Center for Independent Living. She can -- MS. MORRIS: Yeah. And if you want the ADA Project to do it, they cover parts of three states. However, I trained the man that works up there. MR. STRUCKHOFF: So we should call you. MS. MORRIS: Well, you can, or you have a choice. SECRETARY BLUNT: Thank you. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Thank you very much, Ann. MS. MORRIS: You're welcome. SECRETARY BLUNT: Pat? MR. CONWAY: Nothing. SECRETARY BLUNT: Next if I could ask Mary Berry, who's the DeKalb County clerk, to come forward. And as I mentioned, she's one of Missouri's two members to the election systems commission. MS. BERRY: Good afternoon. SECRETARY BLUNT: Hi, Mary. COMMENTS BY MARY BERRY I won't tell you my name; you all know my name. And I do want to first say that Matt, I want to congratulate you on having the foresight and the wisdom in having the groups together. I have learned so much working with the disability groups. It has enlightened me when we thought that we were doing everything we could or trying our best. It has really brought a lot of information to us that we didn't have or didn't see. It's been very good. SECRETARY BLUNT: We're glad. MS. BERRY: I want to say to the lady -- to Ann that the bill of rights that she was speaking about, one of the members of my subcommittee has presented that to us, and the plan that we have worked on has that in it. We hope to have that at each of the polling places, to have it sent out when individuals are registering to vote, either by motor voter or in the registrar's office or however it's done so that each individual can have that in hand. Also one of the persons on the subcommittee would like to have it on the voter ID card when it goes out. It's quite lengthy, and that's the question as to how it can be reduced down so that it fits on that voter ID card with the size that we have now, so it's just a thought. Maybe even just a brief statement that there is a voter bill of rights that could be accessed in some way if they want to read it. I want -- the committee that I'm serving on right now is working on mail-in registrants, first-time voters, instructions on how to vote, how to cast original ballots, and the voting rights as well as the bill of rights. Here's that bill of rights that I have. We're also -- the total committee works on voter education and information, poll worker training, which includes sensitivity training, college poll worker plan, which includes youth participation, the administrative complaint process, and military and overseas voting. That's what the subcommittee for training and education is working on right now. Sorry that Sharon Turner couldn't be here today; she's the chairman of that, or the co-chairman of that. But I just think it's working very well. SECRETARY BLUNT: Well, I'm glad. I'm glad you've been attending some of the public testimony around the state. Anybody have comments? MR. STRUCKHOFF: When we're talking about a device in every precinct, you come from a rather rural area. How many precincts? MS. BERRY: I have 11. MR. STRUCKHOFF: 11 precincts, and they're mostly in rural areas of your county? MS. BERRY: Yes. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Do you see -- if you were to spend, and we're looking at anywhere from $5,000 up per unit for the type of devices that we're talking about. Do you see use in all of your precincts for these? MS. BERRY: No. And I'm a small county, and I mean a really small rural county. And I know a large percent of the people that move in and out; you just simply do when you're in a small county. As individuals that are disabled probably by blind, I only know of one or two that would even use it if they're blind. The deaf might be more than that. Disabled in other physical means, I really couldn't tell you. But we just have very few people that are blind in the county. We just simply don't have. MR. STRUCKHOFF: If you had to use this system by itself, okay, and the other voting devices in your precincts were of a different nature, say an optical scan or whatever, do you think it would be easier to figure out how just one person who used that machine voted? MS. BERRY: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. MR. STRUCKHOFF: So actually, more people could find out how that person voted -- MS. BERRY: Yes. MR. STRUCKHOFF: -- because they're using a different device? MS. BERRY: Yes. But I don't know how to comply with the law and not have it. SECRETARY BLUNT: I'm glad you're on the federal commission. MS. BERRY: Well, just a small county -- of course, there's a lot of small rural counties in Missouri. And the larger percentage of us are. SECRETARY BLUNT: You bet. MR. STRUCKHOFF: And before you leave, I'll say this to you and all the other county clerks who traveled here. We operate pretty much on sales tax, and I know you're a big shopper. And I will be more than happy to give you directions to our mall. MS. BERRY: I've already been, right across the street from the St. Louis Bread Company. I've spent dollars today. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Thank you very much. SECRETARY BLUNT: And also we have a Greene County commissioner, Darrell Decker. Darrell? COMMENTS BY DARRELL DECKER Good afternoon, Mr. Secretary and members of the committee. I hold one of those jobs where I'm responsible for trying to use the taxpayers' money to manage the checkbook in such a way that we get maximum benefit for every dollar that we spend. Now I want to tell you that this is very awkward for me today because of my clerk being up at the front today. Normally when my clerk addresses me, he's on this side. And so turnabout's fair play. I would like to address this from the term -- from the scope of unfunded mandate. And regardless of what federally we're told they're going to apply to a project, we all have been on the other end of that that we realize never is the amount of money appropriated that gets talked about. And then when it starts to make its way from the federal coffers to state and then down to local, for some reason or other there seems to be some method of taking a portion off the top that never do the dollars really get where they're actually needed as far as trying to implement something like this. Greene County has -- and I'm sure Richard has the number off the top of his head, but somewhere in the neighborhood of 113, 114 precincts. You look at a situation where even one machine per precinct, and you're looking at $4,000 upward, a $5,000 figure for a machine, you're looking at a half a million dollar expenditure just in the purchase of one per precinct. That says nothing about programming the machine, that cost. That says nothing about maintenance. That says nothing about storage. And I'm assuming we're dealing with something here that is a computer-generated type of program that helps it operate for the computer. What do we have in terms of just storage as far as climate control and things like that that we now don't deal with with the punch card systems that we have. And so I see two different things going on within the -- this effort of trying to -- how do we refine the process of voting that have a tendency the way they're being structured to conflict with each other. But I think we have the opportunity if we're innovative to maybe figure out a way to make them work together. And that is there's a tremendous effort at the present time to go from just absentee voting, which starts six weeks ahead of election, to the voting process of just early voting, whereby without having to declare an absentee reason just simply the process of early voting just because I don't want to go stand in line on election day. And it appears to me that an effective use of dollars would be able to look at precincts and to analyze precincts as far as the need for this type of equipment is concerned. And possibly this equipment needs to be in less distribution than every voting precinct. There needs to be some way of dealing with this where it could be tied with the early voting process so that there is time for people to access the ability to vote. And particularly do so in many jurisdictions that literally there is no way to handle the cost of trying to make something available in every precinct where maybe it will never be used. In Greene County the past budget cycle, the State of Missouri withdrew funding for enough programs and enough services that are state responsibility that Greene County's budget this cycle has been hit three-quarters of a million dollars. That's per year. That's an ongoing process that we are short that much revenue that is in our current budget that just isn't going to be there because of changes in the state. The last thing we need to do is to see additional unfunded mandates that cause us to be in a situation of not being able to deliver the services to our voters that we've made a commitment to do. I have -- in early part of this year already I shared with a number of different civic organizations and usually when I do programs with them I basically take the executive summary of our budget and that's what I let be the outline of my presentation. And I leave each group with a promise that the Greene County commission will do everything in its power so that the way that we handle the public checkbook will be done in such a way that we will not mismanage the public dollar. We will not put the county in a position of not being able to meet its requirements and its responsibilities. But I tell each group, "I have no control over what the state or the federal government does to us." And so Greene County, even though it's not in the position that the State of Missouri is in right now, trying to figure out how to pay the light bill, that's not to say that we can't be in that position tomorrow, simply because of other jurisdictions placing things on us that we cannot handle. And so I would urge for -- I know that we have some time, that there's waivers and things available I think as far out as, what, 2006 on some of this. And so I would like to see, even if we need to be addressing at the federal level -- I'm really glad that Mary Berry is here -- that we need to be addressing at the federal level, do we take a second look at what we're trying to do and say, "Yes, what we're trying to accomplish is a great thing and needs to be." But maybe there are more economical ways to be dealing with it, more realistic ways to be dealing with it. And maybe this concept of early voting, tying it with the accessibility issue is more the direction that we need to be looking. SECRETARY BLUNT: Thank you, and I certainly share your concerns about unfunded mandates from the federal government to the states and the states to the localities. And I appreciate your comments about early voting. I'm an advocate of an early voting program in our state. I do think it would alleviate some of the problems that we have with servicing people on election day. Actually next week we'll be issuing a report to the legislature that will outline how much it would cost to go to an early voting system in our state. And there's an initial one-time cost, an ongoing cost in addition to that. They're substantial, but they're certainly nowhere near as substantial as some of the costs that are about to be incurred because of this purchase of new equipment and other things we have to do to be in compliance with the federal law. And unfortunately, I've never met anybody who believes that the federal government even plans to appropriate enough money to really cover the cost of full implementation. And I do think they're planning on the states and localities and local government to making the investment. And obviously this is a time where it's very difficult to make any new expenditures or take on any new responsibilities. And I think as Richard pointed out, you're talking about a process that's used several days in the year, and it's often difficult to make the argument that that's where you ought to make your investment rather than things that can be used all the time by our citizens. But I'm sure others would like to comment as well. MR. STRUCKHOFF: I want him to be kind to me next time -- MR. CONWAY: Let me talk, Richard. I know how dealing with your commission works, and I'll handle it from the north side. Darrell, I appreciate your comments. One of the things that I try to sneak into these hearings, not necessarily for the elected officials who are present here or for the Secretary, but a lot of people don't realize that all elections are paid for at the local level. Even the primary election and the presidential election, although they are our highest turnout elections by far, especially the presidential, that the federal government does not actually contribute to printing the ballots or programming the machines or hiring the election judges. And the state funding does not really come into play unless the state has a particular election. So as you do your budget, I know every even-numbered year when I present the budget to the commissioners and I have to ask for an additional $150,000, they go, "Well, you didn't have it last year," and I have to explain, "We didn't have any elections last year, guys, so you know, help me out here." MR. DECKER: We all use that same excuse. MR. CONWAY: Yeah. Does Richard use that same line? I think it's one I learned from his dad. But I think that that's an important thing that we want to get out to the general public is to realize that as we implement these improvements and we try to act within the boundaries of the Help America Vote Act, that most of these cost factors is what we get from the federal government. But the ongoing task of conducting the primary and the general elections and that the school districts and the cities have to contribute for their own elections, that when they say all elections are local, all elections are local and all the costs are local too. So I appreciate your comments. MR. DECKER: Gentlemen, there's discussion about superprecincts and things like this, of trying to combine precincts together. And I would ask is there a way to maybe do that, to think about that? And I don't mean superprecincts trying to cut Greene County's precincts necessarily from 113 down to 50 or something like that. But I'm saying is there a way by definition to create a superprecinct that is a larger jurisdiction than just a normal precinct that people would make application to in order to vote in that superprecinct? In other words, is there a way to deal with that process and also handle the accessibility issue? And a question for Richard: Richard, what do we have, five, six hundred machines countywide? What's the number that we have? MR. STRUCKHOFF: A thousand. MR. DECKER: A thousand, yes. MR. STRUCKHOFF: That are available to us in our presidential election. A thousand voting devices. MR. DECKER: If we had to change them all to one standard type so you couldn't pick out, "Okay, who voted thisaway because they had a different machine than someone else does." See, we're talking about $5 million just in Greene County just in the purchase process without trying to maintain or anything else. So I appreciate your consideration. MR. STRUCKHOFF: Let me make one comment about superprecincts, and this came up at our state planning meeting. The ultimate effect of the Help America Vote Act could make voting more difficult for the majority of people who normally vote. MR. DECKER: Yes. MR. STRUCKHOFF: I mean people are used to going to their neighborhood precinct, which could be within walking distance of their home. And if we start shrinking this to save costs because we don't want to put a handicapped voting accessible machine in that, you know, little neighborhood precinct, that would be terrible in my estimation. But it's happening already. I mean in many jurisdictions across the country, people are saying, "Hey, we're not going to be able to afford this. We're going to have to shrink the number," which means people are going to have to -- most people will have to then travel further. I say we could still have superprecincts and make those precincts available and fully handicapped accessible with the handicapped accessible equipment. MR. DECKER: Yes. MR. STRUCKHOFF: And that's where we could send people who need to change their address, because all voting style ballots would be available in that superprecinct, rather than clog the neighborhood precincts. And really -- you're really helping the person who does keep their address current who does like to walk across the street to cast a ballot, you know, get the people who need to change their address, send them to a superprecinct, and send people who need -- or who have special needs for accessibility, send them to that superprecinct. MR. DECKER: Well, that's certainly what I'm trying to say. I think there's a way to combine several of these issues together and reach a way of getting to what we're trying to accomplish without creating the burden that is just totally unbearable on the taxpayers of every community. SECRETARY BLUNT: Thank you very much. MR. CONWAY: Thank you, Darrell. SECRETARY BLUNT: We have a number of other county clerks and election officials here. Would anybody else like to offer any comments or voice any concerns? MR. STRUCKHOFF: Oh, you should hear them at our meetings. SECRETARY BLUNT: Certainly I would want to thank those that took the time to testify. I thank all of you for being here and having an interest in the election process. Certainly I'm grateful that state planning committee members made the trip here and grateful that so many Southwest Missouri county clerks chose to come as well. Thank you very much. MR. STRUCKHOFF: And I would just like to say we're proud that you're one of our favorite sons. We're also very proud of this facility. Make sure if you haven't looked around, that you do. This is just a tremendous library system that we have. They're actually building another facility very much like this one on the north end of town. So spend some money and thank you all. SECRETARY BLUNT: Thank you. (The public hearing was concluded at 3:45 p.m.) REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE STATE OF MISSOURI ) SS: COUNTY OF GREENE ) I, Karen S. Rogers, Registered Professional Reporter, Certified Court Reporter, and Notary Public in and for the State of Missouri, do hereby certify that I was personally present at the taking of the proceedings as set forth in the caption sheet hereof; that I then and there took down in stenotype the proceedings had at said time; and that the foregoing is a full, true, and accurate transcription of such stenotype notes so made at such time and place, all to the best of my skill and ability. Karen S. Rogers, RPR, CCR No. 846, Notary Public My commission expires March 19, 2004. (end)